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 Timed Puzzle Bonus 
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Posted on: Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:56 am




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Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 9:44 am
Post Re: timed puzzle bonus
My apologies. I had not really tried the timed puzzles so was in no position to comment. The fact that you have to be logged on to solve them and once you start one it won't come up again even in a different browser means that it is difficult to cheat. I have not tried registering twice but suspect that different puzzles are presented to each user. (?)

My main problem is that I dislike puzzles that have to be solved at speed so have no inclination to try the timed puzzles and this is frustrating since they count towards your total points. It would be good if they were scored separately and then slow solvers like me would get a chance to move to the top of the lists.


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Posted on: Tue Jul 05, 2011 2:25 am




Posts: 93
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:08 am
Post Re: timed puzzle bonus
johne wrote:
My main problem is that I dislike puzzles that have to be solved at speed so have no inclination to try the timed puzzles and this is frustrating since they count towards your total points. It would be good if they were scored separately and then slow solvers like me would get a chance to move to the top of the lists.


In the days before timed puzzles, there were a bunch of us solvers who solved every puzzle every day. The only way to move up on the list was to hope that the rest of the competition didn't have enough time to devote to solving all the puzzles, or had something more important to do than solve puzzles one day. It was pretty boring. Like you I dislike doing timed puzzles, but with the advent of timed puzzles you at least have something that can discriminate among the best players, even if it primarily rewards speed.


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Posted on: Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:08 am




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Location: Canada
Joined: Fri May 13, 2011 2:43 am
Post Re: Timed Puzzle Bonus
Well ok, for those who don't do time puzzles or aren't fast enough to score points, you can maybe substitute with a really hard puzzle (15x15)? Like this, if you don't do any timed puzzles at all for 1 week, you get to do a 15x15 puzzle instead, once a week. Maybe the reward for solving it can be say, 30 points? This way, you have to decide whether to take a chance and do timed puzzles or abstain for a week and be rewarded by a hard puzzle and 30 points (if you can solve it). Number of points can be tweaked but the people who don't do timed puzzles can at least have a way of competing for top spots. If you think you might be able to get 5 points or more a day on timed puzzles you'd opt to try timed puzzles instead.

The thing is about this idea is that it's not really going to encourage more people to do timed puzzles.

In a different post somewhere else, I mentioned another idea which is a bit similar to Patrick's newest suggestion of extending the tail end of the scoring. My other idea was basically to award points for simply solving puzzles in the timed puzzles section. starling thinks people shouldn't be rewarded for solving puzzles slowly in the timed puzzles section, but if everyone was awarded 1, 2, 3 points for completing all 3 puzzles of each size 4x4, 5x5, 6x6 respectively, at least more people would be doing the puzzles.

New idea: Put each user in a different Class and compete only against your Class. First we have to keep a timed ranking list for 7 days. Say, everyone who is on the timed puzzle rankings is divided into classes of 10 users each. For the following week, you get points based on how well you do in your class. So even if you are in Class #2 (11th-20th ranked player), you can get points based on how you compare to others in your class. If you are in the top 2 in your class, you move to the higher class. If you arein the bottom 2 of your class, you move to the lower class. The higher the class, the more the winnings. I don't know if this would work. And numbers would really have to be tweaked to see what balance works but this just came off the top of my head.


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Posted on: Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:42 am




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Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 11:58 pm
Post Re: timed puzzle bonus
mparisi wrote:
Like you I dislike doing timed puzzles, but with the advent of timed puzzles you at least have something that can discriminate among the best players, even if it primarily rewards speed.

Exactly. I think it makes it more of a contest, and simply rewards points to people
who are better at solving Calcudokus.

Earlier this year I held a small Calcudoku contest at the science museum in Amsterdam
(using a modified version of the 321monkey site),
which awards bonus points to the first 5 solvers of each puzzle: imagine not doing that,
_and_ allocating so much time each round so everyone can solve each puzzle..

(the 321monkey site and the contest were part of a larger promotion for the
International Math Olympiad, which is held in Amsterdam
this year (starting July 16th!).

Patrick


Last edited by pnm on Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:52 am, edited 1 time in total.



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Posted on: Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:50 am




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Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 11:58 pm
Post Re: Timed Puzzle Bonus
hi sneaklyfox,

thanks for all your ideas again :)

sneaklyfox wrote:
Well ok, for those who don't do time puzzles or aren't fast enough to score points, you can maybe substitute with a really hard puzzle (15x15)? Like this, if you don't do any timed puzzles at all for 1 week, you get to do a 15x15 puzzle instead, once a week.


I thought about the same thing yesterday (!) It's tricky though. If I do one timed 4x4, I can't do the 15x15 for that week?

sneaklyfox wrote:
Number of points can be tweaked but the people who don't do timed puzzles can at least have a way of competing for top spots.


Being at the top spot has to mean something, i.e. that you're the best, so you're right
in suggesting that this extra puzzle should be very difficult.

sneaklyfox wrote:
be rewarded for solving puzzles slowly in the timed puzzles section, but if everyone was awarded 1, 2, 3 points for completing all 3 puzzles of each size 4x4, 5x5, 6x6 respectively, at least more people would be doing the puzzles.


That's possible, but then the timed puzzles would become part of the "daily set" for the people
who solve every puzzle. And as Calcudokus go, they're not that hard or interesting..

sneaklyfox wrote:
New idea: Put each user in a different Class and compete only against your Class. First we have to keep a timed ranking list for 7 days. Say, everyone who is on the timed puzzle rankings is divided into classes of 10 users each. For the following week, you get points based on how well you do in your class.


You're trying to keep me busy I see :)
That's a major project, for which I don't have the time..

What I'd really like to have at some point (again, time is always the issue) is the possibility
to challenge someone else, and start solving the same puzzle at the same time.

Patrick


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Posted on: Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:04 pm




Posts: 422
Location: Canada
Joined: Fri May 13, 2011 2:43 am
Post Re: Timed Puzzle Bonus
pnm wrote:
sneaklyfox wrote:
Well ok, for those who don't do time puzzles or aren't fast enough to score points, you can maybe substitute with a really hard puzzle (15x15)? Like this, if you don't do any timed puzzles at all for 1 week, you get to do a 15x15 puzzle instead, once a week.


I thought about the same thing yesterday (!) It's tricky though. If I do one timed 4x4, I can't do the 15x15 for that week?


Well my thought was that the counter for 7 days without timed puzzles starts from the last timed puzzle you do. But yes, the idea was that if you do one timed 4x4 you shouldn't be allowed to do a 15x15 until after full week of abstaining from timed puzzles.

Or, alternatively, each day that you don't do any timed puzzles could earn you 1 credit. After you've saved up 7 credits (or however many credits), you are given 1 week to solve a 15x15 puzzle. Or some variation of this idea...


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Posted on: Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:19 pm




Posts: 422
Location: Canada
Joined: Fri May 13, 2011 2:43 am
Post Re: timed puzzle bonus
pnm wrote:
So maybe there should also be a maximum time beyond which you don't get points, even if you're
in the top 20. So for a 4x4, for example: in top 20, and below 20 seconds, will get you points.

The motivation for the longer tail is to get more people to do the timed puzzles.

Patrick


Patrick, I know you only have so many hours in a day. I just like giving ideas when I have them. It's really up to you whether you want to implement them or not. But extending the tail end for scoring on timed puzzles seems like a good solution right now. I don't see a problem with it. And just saying that we'll limit it to under 20 seconds or whatever seems rather arbitrary. What if I just happened to be one of those people who stay in the 21-25 sec range on a 4x4? I'd wonder why the limit wasn't set to 30 seconds instead. starling, I don't really understand your objection when you're still going to get the most points from timed puzzles. (Btw, I was really annoyed when you got 14.something seconds on that 5x5 on the very same day I got 17.something on my 5x5!) I wish there were a fair way of rewarding a user for beating their own personal best, but I don't really have an idea how.


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Posted on: Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:26 pm




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Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 11:58 pm
Post Re: timed puzzle bonus
sneaklyfox wrote:
limit it to under 20 seconds or whatever seems rather arbitrary. What if I just happened to be one of those people who stay in the 21-25 sec range on a 4x4?

All of the limits and point assignments are arbitrary that way..
In general I try to come up with something reasonable.

And ideas are always welcome, usually I add them to a list, and occasionally
I pick something from the list to add to the site :)

Patrick


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Posted on: Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:55 pm




Posts: 175
Joined: Fri May 13, 2011 2:11 am
Post Re: timed puzzle bonus
sneaklyfox wrote:
And just saying that we'll limit it to under 20 seconds or whatever seems rather arbitrary. What if I just happened to be one of those people who stay in the 21-25 sec range on a 4x4? I'd wonder why the limit wasn't set to 30 seconds instead. starling, I don't really understand your objection when you're still going to get the most points from timed puzzles. (Btw, I was really annoyed when you got 14.something seconds on that 5x5 on the very same day I got 17.something on my 5x5!) I wish there were a fair way of rewarding a user for beating their own personal best, but I don't really have an idea how.

The thing I'm objecting to is that anyone who takes longer to solve a puzzle than my worst 4x4 since the institution of the timed puzzles(Completely seriously, the longest I've taken and actually solved it is 19 seconds. There's been like 2-3 that I left unsolved because there wasn't anything I saw quickly, but other than those...) getting points doesn't make sense. It also doesn't make sense that someone can do a 4x4 and get points for a time >20 seconds, but I can do a 5x5 and not get points for a time <20 seconds. That's why I really like the idea of giving points for seconds above a given threshold, even if it does reward people who are better at 6x6 and 5x5 more than 4x4 (Which I consider myself to be better at, even though it's the only one I'm not first in best time and average of best 3 times(Accursed 5.476 time from Sheldolina...).) And sorry for that 14 second time's placement, then. I was surprised by it too, since I had had a really off day on 4x4's.


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Posted on: Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:13 am




Posts: 26
Joined: Fri May 13, 2011 7:57 am
Post Re: Timed Puzzle Bonus
In Golf they use Handicap and by Billiards Moyenne maybe that can be used here too.
Or give points when a player beats their own fastest time.


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