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testing no-op puzzles
http://www.calcudoku.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=441
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Author:  pnm  [ Sun Jun 02, 2013 3:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: testing no-op puzzles

clm wrote:
Good idea that this first no-op is "easy" (6x6 and "large" results). Btw, the "Clear all cells" feature cleans the cells but not the operators (this could be also interesting for this specific puzzle).

Yes, maybe I'll up the level a bit next month.

Re: clear all cells, prob. will add a specific button "Clear all operators"

priority now is to make the Save function also work for the operators.

Author:  bram  [ Sun Jun 02, 2013 5:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: testing no-op puzzles

pnm wrote:
sjs34 wrote:
I've only done one no-op so far. I think I solved it but got no program acknowledgement that I had done so. Hopefully any pertinent bugs will be ironed out before they're included in the regular rotation.

Please see this post: viewtopic.php?p=4039#p4039
in this thread: that bug should be fixed now.

It is true that if you have solved the puzzle (in the sense of placing all the numbers correctly) and then proceed to indicate all the operators, then you no longer have to re-enter one of the numbers on top of that to get the congrats message. But I would argue that you shouldn't have to enter all the operators (or indeed any at all) to get the congrats message as long as you haven't indicated any operator incorrectly. Here's why:

It is great that you can indicate operators (by using Shift + left/right arrow keys) in the no-op puzzles because once you've worked out that only one operator is possible in a cage but haven't figured out yet exactly which numbers go there and so can't "pencil in" candidate numbers, then the operator in itself is still part of the set of constraints you want to remember so you can use them to make further inferences.

But as puzzlers who have solved no-ops at mathdoku.com (where there is no mechanism for indicating operators once you have determined them) will know, it is also possible to solve no-ops without indicating operators. And in many of the cages in the no-ops here at calcudoku.org, it is not necessary to actually indicate the operator because (a) it is immediately obvious which operator goes into the cage (like the "muliplied by" in the 32, 180 and 20 cages and the "plus" in the two-cell 9 cages of the no-op for today, 2 June 2013); or (b) you find out the operator and the numbers of a cage at the same time and so can immediately fill in the numbers (or candidates, if their ordering within the cage is not immediately apparent), which makes it unnecessary to remember the operator for further use.

If you have solved a no-op without indicating all the operators along the way, then it feels pointless and tedious to indicate the operators afterwards. It would be better if the congrats message appeared immediately once all the numbers were placed correctly and no operator was indicated wrongly.

(On another note, I really like the fact that the set of operators in the correct solution is not necessarily unique – as in the solution to today's no-op, where one of the cages has two different possible operators that "suit" the numbers in the cage [smile] But that is another story, unrelated to the point I am making.)

Author:  pnm  [ Sun Jun 02, 2013 6:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: testing no-op puzzles

bram wrote:
But as puzzlers who have solved no-ops at mathdoku.com (where there is no mechanism for indicating operators once you have determined them) will know, it is also possible to solve no-ops without indicating operators. And in many of the cages in the no-ops here at calcudoku.org, it is not necessary to actually indicate the operator because (a) it is immediately obvious which operator goes into the cage (like the "muliplied by" in the 32, 180 and 20 cages and the "plus" in the two-cell 9 cages of the no-op for today, 2 June 2013); or (b) you find out the operator and the numbers of a cage at the same time and so can immediately fill in the numbers (or candidates, if their ordering within the cage is not immediately apparent), which makes it unnecessary to remember the operator for further use.

Ok, thanks for the suggestion, I'll look at removing that requirement.

And one more thing for the list (someone just sent me e-mail): you can't
yet enter the operators on the iPad.. [huh]

Edit: this should be possible now (enter operators on ipad/iphone/etc.)

Author:  sjs34  [ Sun Jun 02, 2013 10:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: testing no-op puzzles

With only one no-op per week, I am happy with the current level of difficulty for awhile until I achieve greater familiarity/proficiency.

Author:  beaker  [ Sun Jun 02, 2013 11:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: testing no-op puzzles

I saved some numbers with their operations but when I recalled the screen, the numbers appeared but not the operations........what happened???

Author:  pnm  [ Sun Jun 02, 2013 11:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: testing no-op puzzles

beaker wrote:
I saved some numbers with their operations but when I recalled the screen, the numbers appeared but not the operations........what happened???

yes, that was still on the todo list..

half an hour hacking further along: saving+loading of operators should work now too :-)

Author:  sjs34  [ Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: testing no-op puzzles

Another voice for eliminating the need to declare operators on the solutions to no-ops. It seems that there is always only one number solution but often there are multiple operator solutions.

Author:  pnm  [ Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: testing no-op puzzles

sjs34 wrote:
Another voice for eliminating the need to declare operators on the solutions to no-ops. It seems that there is always only one number solution but often there are multiple operator solutions.

Not sure.

I suppose I can assume that people will be able to figure out what
a working operator for a cage would be.

Author:  frederick  [ Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: testing no-op puzzles

I also support the elimination of the need for operators. I do not put them in until the end in any case:)

Author:  beaker  [ Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: testing no-op puzzles

I too do not put them in until I have all the cells filled........but,I don't know why this bring discussed........What did I miss [confused]

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