Calcudoku puzzle forumhttps://www.calcudoku.org/forum/ Timed Puzzle Bonushttps://www.calcudoku.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=45 Page 9 of 13

 Author: pnm  [ Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:37 pm ] Post subject: Re: Timed Puzzle Bonus sneaklyfox wrote:I always thought it would be interesting to do this experiment: register a new username just to do timed puzzles. Get used to typing in as fast as possible a possible solution and then regardless of what the solution actually should be type it in the moment the puzzle starts. How many combinations are there for the solution arrangement for a 4x4 puzzle? It should be correct for once eventually and you'd probably get the fastest time because it didn't involve any hard thinking, just muscle memory.576 possible solutions, so about 0.17% change of success... oh, and I think 'she' in starling's post was short for 'sheldolina'

 Author: starling  [ Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:53 pm ] Post subject: Re: Timed Puzzle Bonus pnm wrote:oh, and I think 'she' in starling's post was short for 'sheldolina' Yep, though I have heard a very good argument for making she the standard gender unknown pronoun as well; haven't put that into practice yet.And technically, sneaklyfox is closer to hitting the 4 second mark than I am too, at which point it's still a she.Also, I'll bite, how'd you get to 576? It looks like 4!^2, but since that doesn't follow for 3x3's...

 Author: clm  [ Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:22 pm ] Post subject: Re: Timed Puzzle Bonus sneaklyfox wrote: ... How many combinations are there for the solution arrangement for a 4x4 puzzle? It should be correct for once eventually and you'd probably get the fastest time because it didn't involve any hard thinking, just muscle memory. I calculated and represented those some time ago and I found 108 different arrangements (excluding symmetries), divided into three groups of 36, a group with all the corners different, a second group with a pair of equal corners and a third group with two pairs of equal corners. However, each of those 108 arrangements generates another three using the symmetries (horizontal axis, vertical axis and both axis simultaneously this last is equivalent to a rotation of 180 degrees around the center of the grid). Here is an example (the first arrangement is a particular configuration, let's say "the base", the second arrangement is the symmetry of the first with respect to an horizontal axis, the third arrangement is the symmetry of the first with respect to a vertical axis and the fourth arrangement is the rotation of the first or the equivalent double symmetry horizontal and later vertical or viceversa):1423 2134 3241 43124312 3241 2134 14233241 4312 1423 21342134 1423 4312 3241 So, when considering the cages and the operations involved, we must take into account all the symmetries giving a total of 432 different possibilities. Thus, the probability of getting the correct solution just by entering the numbers randomly (with the "sudoku" condition of course) is 1 / 432 = 0.0023148... so a 2.3148... per thousand, so it is necessary to think something. That said, as you well say, it is necessary to be very fast with the fingers (not only with the brain ), in my particular case I can never go below 10 seconds to enter the 16 numbers in a 4x4 even knowing all the numbers "by heart" or even trying it several times over the same calcudoku and even using the quickest "circuit" to fill it. I am not in favour of the same person having two "users" (it looks like the Patrick's application permits it, even from the same computer, I do not know if with the same e-mail, though it would be unavoidable using different computers and e-mails), in other words I think that to create new users only for timed puzzles would decrease the possibilities of other "innocent" players in a clean competition (specially in the timed puzzles), I am not in favour of the "twin players" (for the regular puzzles or for the timed puzzles), this would introduce some "distortion" in the rankings, don't you think?.

 Author: sneaklyfox  [ Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:41 am ] Post subject: Re: Timed Puzzle Bonus clm wrote: I am not in favour of the same person having two "users" (it looks like the Patrick's application permits it, even from the same computer, I do not know if with the same e-mail, though it would be unavoidable using different computers and e-mails), in other words I think that to create new users only for timed puzzles would decrease the possibilities of other "innocent" players in a clean competition (specially in the timed puzzles), I am not in favour of the "twin players" (for the regular puzzles or for the timed puzzles), this would introduce some "distortion" in the rankings, don't you think?.Of course I was not serious about the same person have two "users".

 Author: starling  [ Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:06 am ] Post subject: Re: Timed Puzzle Bonus I think what sneaklyfox was suggesting was that it was such a ridiculous idea that it wouldn't be worth doing it on your regular account.

 Author: pnm  [ Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:21 pm ] Post subject: Re: Timed Puzzle Bonus clm wrote:I am not in favour of the same person having two "users" (it looks like the Patrick's application permits it, even from the same computer, I do not know if with the same e-mail, though it would be unavoidable using different computers and e-mails)You can create as many accounts as you like, of course (but not with the same e-mail address).It won't be very "sportsmanlike" though.Patrick

 Author: clm  [ Sat Jan 28, 2012 11:00 pm ] Post subject: Re: Timed Puzzle Bonus sneaklyfox wrote:clm wrote: I am not in favour of the same person having two "users" (it looks like the Patrick's application permits it, even from the same computer, I do not know if with the same e-mail, though it would be unavoidable using different computers and e-mails), in other words I think that to create new users only for timed puzzles would decrease the possibilities of other "innocent" players in a clean competition (specially in the timed puzzles), I am not in favour of the "twin players" (for the regular puzzles or for the timed puzzles), this would introduce some "distortion" in the rankings, don't you think?.Of course I was not serious about the same person have two "users". Sure, you are a very good and elegant player and, as you are very smart and good observer, probably you have already noted what, in a pair of cases (at least apparently and coming from long time ago), looks like "twin players" . Who knows ... To avoid that situation and facilitate the "training" purposes (in the case of timed puzzles) a possibility could be to permit the non-registered puzzlers to access to the timed puzzles area returning a message of " ... if you were a registered member you could have obtained the xx position now ... ".

 Author: clm  [ Sat Jan 28, 2012 11:10 pm ] Post subject: Re: Timed Puzzle Bonus pnm wrote:clm wrote:I am not in favour of the same person having two "users" (it looks like the Patrick's application permits it, even from the same computer, I do not know if with the same e-mail, though it would be unavoidable using different computers and e-mails)You can create as many accounts as you like, of course (but not with the same e-mail address).It won't be very "sportsmanlike" though.Patrick Thank you, Patrick, for the clarification. Yes, I agree a 100%, it's only a game ... but that aspect is important ... like in all situations in life. In our country we have an old little saying "En la mesa y en el juego se conoce al caballero" (raw translation: "In the table and in the game you know the gentleman") (my excuses to the ladies, this is an old saying).

 Author: pnm  [ Sat Jan 28, 2012 11:14 pm ] Post subject: Re: Timed Puzzle Bonus clm wrote: Sure, you are a very good and elegant player and, as you are very smart and good observer, probably you have already noted what, in a pair of cases (at least apparently and coming from long time ago), looks like "twin players" . Who knows ...There are ways for me to (automatically) detect this, of course.clm wrote:To avoid that situation and facilitate the "training" purposes (in the case of timed puzzles) a possibility could be to permit the non-registered puzzlers to access to the timed puzzles area returning a message of " ... if you were a registered member you could have obtained the xx position now ... ".The pool of timed puzzles is limited, and in this way it would run out too quickly. This would also mean that you could practicetimed puzzles indefinitely, and after that even (!) have a chance to run into the same puzzle when you do them when logged in.Patrick

 Author: sneaklyfox  [ Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:50 am ] Post subject: Re: Timed Puzzle Bonus clm wrote: Sure, you are a very good and elegant player and, as you are very smart and good observer, probably you have already noted what, in a pair of cases (at least apparently and coming from long time ago), looks like "twin players" . Who knows ...I don't think I'm the observant type. So no, I haven't noted any apparent "twin players" in the past. Agree with Patrick that it would be unsportsmanlike which is exactly why I wasn't serious about it. I mentioned it because it was the only way I could think of to make the "ultimate record" albeit in an unsportsmanlike fashion. But eventually it would be possible after several hundred failed attempts. But Patrick should know I am an honest person. I just like to think of the loopholes for fun.

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