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 Any suggestions? 
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Posted on: Sun May 20, 2012 9:12 am




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Joined: Fri May 13, 2011 6:51 pm
Post Re: Any suggestions?
jaek wrote:
clm wrote:
... I provide a second line of the solution, the row 8 = 973521486 (the full solution in two or three days).


Actually, clm, rather than not show any interest, I didn't show any progress! I couldn't find a first finger or toe hold from which to start my ascent. So maybe rather than give a line or two of answers, could you give a logical first step? If the puzzle is predicated on several different pieces falling into that might be too difficult, but it is the sort of first hint I would most like to see. I should have some time tomorrow for a second go at this. I'll use your two lines as a start if time doesn't allow for the 'first logic step' approach.

Thanks, btw, for all you contribute to this site.


Welcome and thank you, I thought nobody else was trying it already, then I will not send the solution in about another 12 more days. This is the most difficult puzzle I have seen in this site and I think that the rating should be in the order of 180 (better than 140), since 9x9's with 135 or so (on tuesdays) are much more easier. The full solution is very long and complex. A lot of calculations are necessary, so I suggest you to use any tool (like, i.e., the jomapil's auxiliary program) to write down the possible combinations of all the additive cages.

Anyway, the very initial step is quickly determining the cage "0-" in h1-i1-i2, which must have a sum of 6 (using the addition rule for the four top rows). As the higher number inside a cage "n-" which addition value is V equals (V + n) / 2 then the cage is [1,2,3] and those numbers can be quickly placed. This apparently does not help much but eliminates possibilities for the 1's and 2's in "19+", etc..

The sum of cages "1-", "0-" and "3-" in the botom left 4x4 box is 40, using again the addition rule either for the four leftmost columns or for the four bottom rows (in this case, with the info shown [crying], "1-" and "0-" must sum 25).

The L-shape cage "10+" ([1,1,8], [1,2,7], [1,3,6], [1,4,5], [2,2,6], [2,3,5], [2,4,4] and [3,3,4]) is reduced initially to [1,3,6], [1,4,5] and [2,3,5]. It's not much but is something to start.

It's also interesting placing some numbers in the central cross ...


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Posted on: Sun May 20, 2012 4:09 pm




Posts: 98
Joined: Fri May 13, 2011 12:48 am
Post Re: Any suggestions?
It looks like an interesting puzzle. Unfourtunately I have no printer and am lazy, so probably will not solve it.


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Posted on: Sun May 20, 2012 10:43 pm




Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:58 am
Post Re: Any suggestions?
Same here clm, "1-" and the 3 possible series for "10+" where easy.

I have no idea what the next logic step would be.


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Posted on: Mon May 21, 2012 3:29 pm




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Joined: Fri May 13, 2011 6:51 pm
Post Re: Any suggestions?
arjen wrote:
Same here clm, "1-" and the 3 possible series for "10+" where easy.

I have no idea what the next logic step would be.


Obviously we are talking about solving the puzzle from the beginning since solving it with the two lines provided (sorry) is very easy and more for the beginners to practice.

As this a very complex puzzle I am not sure if one day we could find time for a detailed solution. However, a comment: In a different way to the usual 9x9's, in this puzzle is not enough to consider two cages simultaneously in order to analyze the combined effect of the hypothesis followed. We need in most cases considering the combined effect of three cages simultaneously (that's why we need to have near the list of valid combinations for all the cages): for instance, the three "-" cages already referred (with a sum of 40); or the "18+" (a1), "20+" and "15+" (d3); or the "18+" (a1), "1-" and "3-"; or the "15+" (d3), "10+" and "18+" (i3) ; or the "3-", "15+" (f8) and "16+"; or the "18+" (i3), "16+" and "0-" (h1) (already solved btw); ... . Tedious, right?.

An example: Let's consider the "10+", "13+" and "15+" (f8). The cage "13+" has initially these possibilities: [1,3,9], [1,4,8], [1,6,6] and [3,4,6] (once we know that the [3,5,5] is not possible because the "10+" could not be done). In these conditions let's suppose we are determining if a 9 is possible in f8. This would drive to f9 = 4 and g9 = 2, now "10+" <> [2,3,5] so "10+" would contain a 1 and, since g1 = 1, no one is allowed in "13+" >>> "13+" = [3,4,6] with g6 = 4 and f6-f7 = [3,6] but now neither [1,3,6], [1,4,5] are possible for "10+" consequently a 9 cann't be in f8. If you are able to demonstrate that a 9 cann't be inside "13+" (the only combination in this case [1,3,9]) you would have arrived to the conclusion that f5 = 9.

Each time you advance a small step other possibilities can be eliminated. For instance, "16+" = [3,4,9], [3,5,8], [3,6,7] is always containing a 3 thus [3,6,9] and [3,7,8] can be suppressed among the possibilities for "18+" (i3) due to h1 = 3.

In some other cases the possibilities are easily suppressed like the [1,1,3] for the cage "1-" (and obviously all those which contain a 2) because "3-" and "0-" (c6) would have a sum of 35 and being the max value for "3-" = 15 >>> "0-" (+) = 20 which is impossible.

One must be very patient with this puzzle, good luck!.


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Posted on: Mon May 21, 2012 4:19 pm




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Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 8:15 pm
Post Re: Any suggestions?
clm wrote:
arjen wrote:
Same here clm, "1-" and the 3 possible series for "10+" where easy.

I have no idea what the next logic step would be.


Obviously we are talking about solving the puzzle from the beginning since solving it with the two lines provided (sorry) is very easy and more for the beginners to practice.


It is easy enough to ignore those two lines, since they are buried on a prior page of this thread by now. The key is to resist the temptation to look them up!

clm wrote:
An example: Let's consider the "10+", "13+" and "15+" (f8). The cage "13+" has initially these possibilities: [1,3,9], [1,4,8], [1,6,6] and [3,4,6] (once we know that the [3,5,5] is not possible because the "10+" could not be done). In these conditions let's suppose we are determining if a 9 is possible in f8. This would drive to f9 = 4 and g9 = 2, now "10+" <> [2,3,5] so "10+" would contain a 1 and, since g1 = 1, no one is allowed in "13+" >>> "13+" = [3,4,6] with g6 = 4 and f6-f7 = [3,6] but now neither [1,3,6], [1,4,5] are possible for "10+" consequently a 9 cann't be in f8. If you are able to demonstrate that a 9 cann't be inside "13+" (the only combination in this case [1,3,9]) you would have arrived to the conclusion that f5 = 9.


Dang! You are pretty good at this. I've made a little headway in the last day. Mostly writing out possibilities. I have been focusing mostly on the bottom left and the three cages totaling 40. That lead me to think of the other L-shaped cages grouped by quadrant. Your analyses above helped break me out of that rut a bit, by looking at the f and g columns in relation to each other.

Time to get to work, but I'll take another crack at this tonight. I have to get this solved so I can move on to Diablo III. [smile]


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Posted on: Tue May 22, 2012 2:32 pm




Posts: 300
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 8:15 pm
Post Re: Any suggestions?
clm wrote:
pnm wrote:
clm wrote:
what about "the other side of the river?", would you be so kind of providing (when you have time) one of the most difficult 9x9's?, I assume in the range of 200 or more?. Something that requires 14 days or so to solve it ... [scared].

This one should be one notch harder than a Tuesday 9x9.
Often a pattern limits the difficulty level one can achieve. Also, lots of large cages and symmetric
puzzles make it harder to find one with a single solution (this one took many hours to find).

... Solver rating about 140.


Thanks again for this new puzzle, it's certainly much more difficult than the usual 9x9's on tuesdays. It has many combinations and it's very interesting because even having 13 cells given (or better 16 if we consider that h1-i1-i2 is immediate) the rest is very complex. It took me more time than usual.


Got it. This, to me, is like an extreme untimed puzzle. It took clm 26 hours, so I'm pretty pleased to have finished it in a little more than 2 weeks. [smile] It ended up being a lot of fun, as the interdependence of the various cages was cool.

I do have to confess that I ended up using TAE, but because I simply forgot a possible combination in one cell. About half way through I thought I had eliminated all but one option, forged ahead with that combination and hit a dead end after filling in a dozen or more cells based on that faulty assumption. So on the down side, I'm a little sad that I didn't get a more purely analytical solution. On a positive note, without that mistake I might still be working on this thing.

Thanks to Patrick for generating this difficult, difficult puzzle. Thanks to clm for showing that a solution was attainable and giving the hints and encouragement that compelled me to make a second attempt.


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Posted on: Tue May 22, 2012 4:12 pm




Posts: 855
Joined: Fri May 13, 2011 6:51 pm
Post Re: Any suggestions?
jaek wrote:
...

Got it. This, to me, is like an extreme untimed puzzle. It took clm 26 hours, so I'm pretty pleased to have finished it in a little more than 2 weeks. [smile] It ended up being a lot of fun, as the interdependence of the various cages was cool.

I do have to confess that I ended up using TAE, but because I simply forgot a possible combination in one cell. About half way through I thought I had eliminated all but one option, forged ahead with that combination and hit a dead end after filling in a dozen or more cells based on that faulty assumption. So on the down side, I'm a little sad that I didn't get a more purely analytical solution. On a positive note, without that mistake I might still be working on this thing.

Thanks to Patrick for generating this difficult, difficult puzzle. Thanks to clm for showing that a solution was attainable and giving the hints and encouragement that compelled me to make a second attempt.


Congrats! [thumbsup], I think you got your black belt in calcudokus (after this no puzzle would be enough resistant), and now you can move on to Diablo III.

As mentioned, and as you have verified, it's a very "interleaved" calcudoku (I was talking yesterday about the simultaneous effect of three cages, but looking again to the drawing I have observed that eliminating some combinations, specially in the initial stages, may require the analysis of even the combined effect of 5 cages, i.e., "3-", "10+", "13+", "15+" (f8) and "16+"), providing the step by step in this case would be terrible. But trial and error in some cases is like taking a "lateral" road that finally redrives you to the main road "all the ways go to Rome".


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Posted on: Fri May 25, 2012 2:16 am




Posts: 106
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:08 am
Post Re: Any suggestions?
Here are a few things that I've noticed:

1. When you reach your bonus puzzle target submitting your puzzle dialog box tells you so; however if you do another daily puzzle without doing the current bonus puzzle it goes back to saying "You are xx points away from your next bonus puzzle!" even though a current bonus puzzle is available.

2. There is a delay in the dialog box before the "Go to the next unsolved puzzle of this day" link comes up; I'm usually too impatient to wait for it so I click on the next non-green puzzle selector on the main page anyway, which is in itself a minor annoyance, but when you've done all your daily puzzles and you are waiting for the text you will wait a long time. :-) How about putting out something like "You have finished all your daily puzzles" or even better "You have finished all your daily puzzles; would you like to do your bonus puzzle now?" if appropriate.

3. On the timed puzzle selector page you have to click on the size selector before you click on the go button. How about either making the 4x4, 5x5, and 6x6 selectors buttons that go directly to the puzzle. Alternatively start out with the 4x4 size highlighted, and when you've done all three highlight the 5x5 size, etc.

4. On the timed puzzle completion dialog box there's an OK button after "Do another timed puzzle". Clicking on the OK button, however, does not take you the same place as clicking on the do another timed puzzle link. Suggest either going to the same place or renaming the button.


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Posted on: Fri May 25, 2012 3:42 am




Posts: 428
Location: Canada
Joined: Fri May 13, 2011 2:43 am
Post Re: Any suggestions?
mparisi wrote:
Here are a few things that I've noticed:

1. When you reach your bonus puzzle target submitting your puzzle dialog box tells you so; however if you do another daily puzzle without doing the current bonus puzzle it goes back to saying "You are xx points away from your next bonus puzzle!" even though a current bonus puzzle is available.

I like the way it's set up now because sometimes I wait to do the bonus puzzle and I would like to know how many before the next bonus puzzle and I lose my chance to do the current one.
mparisi wrote:
3. On the timed puzzle selector page you have to click on the size selector before you click on the go button. How about either making the 4x4, 5x5, and 6x6 selectors buttons that go directly to the puzzle. Alternatively start out with the 4x4 size highlighted, and when you've done all three highlight the 5x5 size, etc.

I think it's better to highlight and then click go. I mean, just in case someone accidentally hits the wrong size and gets a 5x5 when they were expecting a 4x4. Yes, would prefer 4x4 highlighted first, but this is personal preference. It would be interesting to find out if more people start with a 4x4 or a 6x6 (or 5x5?)


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Posted on: Fri May 25, 2012 3:58 am




Posts: 80
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 3:43 am
Post Re: Any suggestions?
sneaklyfox wrote:
mparisi wrote:
3. On the timed puzzle selector page you have to click on the size selector before you click on the go button. How about either making the 4x4, 5x5, and 6x6 selectors buttons that go directly to the puzzle. Alternatively start out with the 4x4 size highlighted, and when you've done all three highlight the 5x5 size, etc.

I think it's better to highlight and then click go. I mean, just in case someone accidentally hits the wrong size and gets a 5x5 when they were expecting a 4x4. Yes, would prefer 4x4 highlighted first, but this is personal preference. It would be interesting to find out if more people start with a 4x4 or a 6x6 (or 5x5?)

I've always wondered why the first untimed puzzle presented each day is the 6x6 easy. I always have to click on the 4x4 easy, since I like to work my way up.


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